Pre-symposium workshop day, online and in-person all-day

Online via Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available.

In-person venues

Morning meet-up for tours at the University of Brighton, City Campus, Grand Parade Building | CAMPUS MAP

Afternoon workshops at the University of Brighton, Moulsecoomb Campus, Elm House| MOULSECOOMB CAMPUS MAP

Notes

Grand Parade is the base for Brighton Centre for Contemporary Art (CCA). Several exhibitions are on in the Grand Parade and Dorset Place galleries at Brighton CCA during RSD11.

Moulsecoomb is Brighton’s biggest campus and student village, home to the School of Business and Law, School of Architecture, Technology and Engineering, School of Applied Sciences and part of our School of Art and Media. Moulsecoomb is two miles north of Brighton city centre. The campus is near Moulsecoomb train station, bus services, and cycle lanes.

Tours around Brighton

Meet at Grande Parade

Bill Lynch exhibition tour (info coming soon)

Seeing urban food futures in Brighton: a physical and virtual exploration in the city

Current online workshops

Commoning By Design: Exploring commoning approaches for multispecies stakeholder cooperation in systemic design

Design with Togetherness: Cooperation among relations, systems, processes

Unravelling Safety Through Place, People and Things

→ Sign-up for October 12 online workshops using the access code provided.

Online via Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available.

In-person registration & venue

University of Brighton, Moulsecoomb Campus, Elm House, BN2 4GJ | MOULSECOOMB CAMPUS MAP

Moulsecoomb is Brighton’s biggest campus and student village, home to the School of Business and Law, School of Architecture, Technology and Engineering, School of Applied Sciences and part of our School of Art and Media. Moulsecoomb is two miles north of Brighton city centre. The campus is near Moulsecoomb train station, bus services, and cycle lanes.

Elm House – registration desk opens at 10:30, studio starts at 11:00

Note: the studio is in-person at Elm House and open to online participants via the Zoom link.

Investigating new scenarios in food preservation (Part 2/2) – all-day, continues at 13:30.

→ Sign-up for October 12 online workshops using the access code provided.

There are over 30 maps and exhibits – contributing to a resource of systemic design artefacts that find the connections and relationships between things, span aspects of a system, and create immersive, rich design spaces. The exhibition includes a group displayed at Moulsecoomb Campus alongside the conference at the weekend at University of Brighton CCA, and the full digital collection.

Exhibits include a series of projects produced on the MA Sustainable Design programme, and work in progress of a systemic design challenge by the BSc Product Design students at the University of Brighton.

Presentations

The Hidden Curriculum in Medical Education: Exposing the Loss of Empathy

Visakhapatnam : A Clean Industrial Hub

Others to be announced

In-person registration & venue

University of Brighton, Moulsecoomb Campus, Elm House, BN2 4GJ | MOULSECOOMB CAMPUS MAP

Moulsecoomb is Brighton’s biggest campus and student village, home to the School of Business and Law, School of Architecture, Technology and Engineering, School of Applied Sciences and part of our School of Art and Media. Moulsecoomb is two miles north of Brighton city centre. The campus is near Moulsecoomb train station, bus services, and cycle lanes.

Concurrent in-person workshops

Powers of Ten: Mapping systems-level gaps using the SX Canvas

Seeing urban food futures in Brighton: a physical and virtual exploration in the city (continues)

The Book of Iteration: Workshop and Introduction to the Method

Investigating new scenarios in food preservation (Part 2/2 PM)

→ Sign-up for October 12 online workshops using the access code provided.

Concurrent online workshops

Between Iceberg Model and How Might We question

EN-ROADS: Using the Climate Interactive Tool for Designing and Planning

Concurrent in-person workshops

From Discord to Effective Innovation Cycles: Mitigating Project Team Hierarchies

Indigenizing & Decolonizing Social Innovation: Lessons for Systemic Design

Investigating new scenarios in food preservation (Part 2/2)

Playing With The Trouble: Exploring (mini)games for interdisciplinary connections

Concurrent online workshops

How can ethics, diversity and participative values be embedded into an artificial intelligence system?

Systems Works: Developing Systems Thinking capability by understanding daily problems (90 minutes)

The Age of Planetary Systems Complexity: Applications for Systemic Design

Brighton Electric, Tramway House, 43-45 Coombe Terrace, Lewes Road, Brighton, BN2 4AD

Casual gathering for all – including SDA General Assembly.

The Systemic Design Association General Assembly will be held at Brighton Electric and online from 18:30-19:30 BST. All welcome. This one-hour meeting is an update on SDA activities from November 2021 to October 2022. Supporting members are encouraged to vote on the proposed change to the statutes (below) and elections for board members. The meeting will be held online (via Zoom link).

All welcome – sign-up to receive the agenda and supporting documents.

Connect online via the Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available.

In-person registration & venue

Ironworks Studios – 30 Cheapside, Brighton, BN1 4GD | MAP

Ironworks Studios is a local Brighton multimedia events space operated by Brighton Pride CIC. The walk from the main train station to the studio takes just a few minutes.

Mathilda Tham – Falling in Love with Complex Systems – Uncompromisingly systemic and holistic approaches for home making together on Earth

SESSION 1 PAPERS

Designing Open Innovation Ecosystems for Small and Medium Enterprises -122 Silvia Barbero and Amina Pereno

A Systemic Co-Design Iceberg: A systemic perspective in the ever-evolving practice of empathic co-design -104 Wina Smeenk

SOU SOU: Supporting transitions through ritual, friendship and play -156 Cheryl Hsu, Adrienne Pacini, Kimberley Peter and Michael Schaus

SESSION 2 PAPERS

The frog that leaped -32 Helen Avery

Global Elephants in the Room: A reflexive prospective following 50 years of the Global Problematique -89 Peter Jones

Trapped in Complexity: Worlds and the methods they make -118 Håkan Edeholt

Concurrent online activities – 30 minutes

Postcard from the future

Systemic self and pluriverse

Activities are 30-minute interactive sessions that provide a space for participants to engage and enact (not just listen to) new ideas and practices. Whereas conventional paper presentations usually begin with a talk and end with (often rushed) questions and comments, this format places interactions amongst participants as the main activities.

10 minutes – Opening, including introductions and scene setting
15 minutes – Activity, with participants getting the chance to interact
5 minutes – Conclusion

SESSION 3 PAPERS

Insights from the Design for Planet Fellowship -165 Bernard Hay

Guiding Strategies For System Change with a Futures-Led, Human-Centred Design Approach -148 Eloise Smith-Foster and Tom Castle

Are Systemic Design Methods Excluding People with Learning Disabilities? -96 Irma Cecilia Landa-Avila, Satheesh Gangadharan, Sarah Rabbitte, Amy Wilkins, Michelle O’Reilly, Neil Sinclair, Chris Knifton, Panagiotis Balatsoukas, Rohit Shankar and Gyuchan Thomas Jun

A Call for Scaling Literacy -49 Ingrid Mulder, Maria Belén Buckenmayer and Ryan J.A. Murphy

SESSION 4 PAPERS

Integrating Speculative and Systemic Approaches into Service Design -10 Zijun Lin and Beatrice Villari

Facing Systemic Challenges with Epistemic Humility -73 Michael Troop

Systemic Design and Game Design: The equilibrium gameplay loop -48 Laureline Chiapello

Employing Choice Infrastructure and Choice Posture to Achieve Positive-Sum System Outcomes -9 Ruth Schmidt

Commoning by Design: Staying relational in conflict -180 Julia Schaeper

Cultural Premises, Conscious Purposes, and Design: Conversing with the legacies of Gregory Bateson and Vern Carroll

Cultural Premises session cases

Cultural Premises reference articles

Introduction to #NewMacy

Fran Edgerley and Sofia Deria – New Old Architectures: Interdisciplinary spatial practice – “How might we expand the scope of architecture to reorient around different priorities, enact different systems and make space for different forms of living together?”

#NewMacy ACT I – Re-defining Stability. A contextual framing for #NewMacy and the #NewMacy “Acts” at RSD11.

Location: The Walrus

STOP! The Curse of Change – Dialogue facilitated by Birger Sevaldson and Andreas Wettre

Books & Beers – flash presentations by authors

Connect online via the Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available.

In-person registration & venue

Ironworks Studios – 30 Cheapside, Brighton, BN1 4GD | MAP

Ironworks Studios is a local Brighton multimedia events space operated by Brighton Pride CIC. The walk from the main train station to the studio takes just a few minutes.

Tony Fry – Seeing RSD11’s Seven Foci Relationally – My context: seeing the event’s seven foci relationally. Planetary life is sick, this sickness is a product, one produced by rogue systems that are undercutting life’s dwelling, with design complicit and failing to confront designing-in-time. Thus the story to tell is eternal, and is of holding foreshortened, but destined, oblivion at bay.

SESSION 5 PAPERS

Reducing Plastic Waste from Hospital Procedures to Improve Environmental, Financial, and Social Sustainability of Healthcare Practices -106 Heather Baid and Tom Ainsworth

Scaling Up: From labs to systemic change -121 Katinka Bergema and Christine De Lille

A Social-Systemic Perspective on Behaviour Change: A co-design case study -51 Anita Van Essen, Nynke Tromp, Remko van der Lugt, Inge Klatte and Paul Hekkert

SESSION 6 PAPERS

Systemic Relational Insights: A new hybrid intelligence approach to make sense of complex problems -117
Andrea Cattabriga

Social Design of Community Service Models with AIoT to Support Aging and Elders Well-Being: Scoping review study -68 Qian He, Lianne Simonse and Elisa Giaccardi

Boundaries as Connection Points: Expanding systemic design methodologies through an “elastic toggling” process -126 Haley Fitzpatrick and Tobias Luthe

The second of a two-part dialogue series that brings diverse perspectives together for a reflective exploration into systemic design’s role in perpetuating oppression. The in-person fishbowl dialogue aims to grapple with if and how the systemic design community can confront legacies of oppression and work toward liberatory aims.

Full description

Online activity – 30 minutes

How does service design tackle sustainability challenges properly? Strategic Sustainability Designer, the birth of a new discipline

Sustainable Innovation

Activities are 30-minute interactive sessions that provide a space for participants to engage and enact (not just listen to) new ideas and practices. Whereas conventional paper presentations usually begin with a talk and end with (often rushed) questions and comments, this format places interactions amongst participants as the main activities.

10 minutes – Opening, including introductions and scene setting
15 minutes – Activity, with participants getting the chance to interact
5 minutes – Conclusion

Six #NewMacy studios over two days 1/6 – ACT II Radiant Circles — Cybernetic Musings on Resonant Forms #NewMacy

SESSION 7 PAPERS

Leverage Is Fractal, Relative… And What Else? We need a theory of leverage in systemic design -149 Ryan Murphy

Embedding Systemic Design Practices in an Experienced International Development Design Studio -29 Frida Lizeth Gomez Poblette and Pieter Jan Stappers

Transformation Systems for Socioeconomic Transition -163 Steve Waddell, Sandra Waddock, Peter Jones, and Ian Kendrick

Braiding Knowledge Systems as Environmental Peacebuilding: A four-dimensional analysis for co-applying Indigenous and non-Indigenous worldviews -103 Natalija Vojno

SESSION 8 PAPERS

Reconsidering Power and Place in Systemic Design: Strategies for scaling scree and scaling deep -92 Danielle Lake

Rethinking Participatory Design Research Methodologies -67 Chantal Spencer

The Hip Hop Xpress Double Dutch Boom Bus: Remixing the university and co-designing futures with Black youth in the United States -18 William Patterson and Sharon Irish

Towards Relational Design Practices: De-centering design through lessons from community organising -162 Erica Dorn and Tara Dickman

Focus description: Confronting legacies of oppression

How do we frame questions around design and sustainability? Do we consider the many different ways of being, doing and knowing across the planet? In this talk, Critical and pluriversal design for a world in crisis, Lesley-Ann Noel will share stories about design, sustainability and pluriversality and how (and why) she intentionally introduced critical theory into the design courses she was teaching, ultimately leading to the creation of design tools like The Designer’s Critical Alphabet and the Positionality Wheel.

Six #NewMacy studios over two days – ACT II – Pandemic of ‘Today’s AI’

To be announced

#NewMacy six studios over two days – ACT II Art as Steersmanship

Connect online via the Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available.

In-person registration & venue
Ahmedabad, India – location information coming soon

Brighton –In-person registration & venue
University of Brighton, City Campus, Grand Parade Building | CAMPUS MAP

Grand Parade is the base for Brighton Centre for Contemporary Art (CCA). Several exhibitions are in the Grand Parade and Dorset Place galleries at Brighton CCA during RSD11.

SESSION 9 PAPERS

Hosted by the National Institute of Design, Ahmedabad, India

Design Intent as the Driving Force for Systemic Change -127 Gayatri Menon

Blockchain for Socio-Economic Impact: Financial inclusion by environment-centric service design -110 Vishruth Kumar, Pavan Kalyan, Praveen Nahar and Sahil Thappa

Research by Infrastructural Design: Systems thinking from the perspective of thermodynamics -38 Simin Tao

Interdisciplinary Systemic Innovation for Healing and Creating Resilient Communities in the Post-COVID-19 era -30 Tanhao Gao, Jingwen Tian, Xiaotong Zhang and Hongtao Zhou

From a Problem to the Problem System -74 Mamta Gautam

Technological governance: Opportunities for systemic design -6 Desmond Wong

Join online via the Zoom link – the lobby and chat will be available 30 minutes before the session.

In-person registration & venue

University of Brighton, City Campus, Grand Parade Building | CAMPUS MAP

Grand Parade is the base for Brighton Centre for Contemporary Art (CCA). Several exhibitions are on in the Grand Parade and Dorset Place galleries at Brighton CCA during RSD11.

University of Brighton, City Campus, Grand Parade Building | CAMPUS MAP

Grand Parade is the base for Brighton Centre for Contemporary Art (CCA). Several exhibitions are on in the Grand Parade and Dorset Place galleries at Brighton CCA during RSD11.

This talk, On the Contradictions of Sustainability, will explore the contradictions of sustainability: the way brands greenwash their practices to signal their good and ethical practices, and how they continue to create products and services branded as sustainable that we just do not need, but never challenging the systems that created the problems to begin with. The talk will conclude by considering how we can design over time and confront the effects these products and services we think we need have on the world (and the worlds within that world).

Six #NewMacy studios over two days – 4/6 “Panarchy” as a Sense-Making Tool #NewMacy ACT II

SESSION 10 PAPERS

Curious Controversies: A systemic design lens to understand value conflicts in the smart city -131 Anouk Geenen, Julieta Matos-Castaño, Deger Ozkaramanli and Mascha van der Voort

Complex Urban Futures: Using scenarios to tackle the complexity of megaregional systems -70 Henry Endemann, Joern Buehring and Gerhard Bruyns

A Systemic Approach to Proximity Through Design for Relations -93 Carla Sedini, Silvia D’Ambrosio, Xue Pei and Francesco Zurlo

A System Design and Inquiry of South Railway Station in Shanghai: From functional to symbolic -39 Ye Wang, Yijia Xin, Bill Li and Jacky Shen

SESSION 11 PAPERS

Cybernetic Musings on Open Form(s) -40 Claudia Westermann

Toward an Eco-Social perspective: How to design in time of trouble -76 Margherita Vacca, Francesco Cantini, Alessio Tanzini and Fabio Ballerini

Followed by SESSION 11 PANEL: Planetary Health Futures

Focus: Radical shifts in planetary health

SESSION 11 PANEL

Planetary Health Futures

Evan Barba, Eleni Charoupia, Sally Sutherland, and Clément Vidal

Focus: Radical shifts in planetary health

SESSION 12 PAPERS

A Systemic Approach to Traps and Opportunities for Sustainable Value Chains in Norwegian Forestry -105 Kristin Stoeren Wigum

A Designerly Approach for Transitioning the Construction Industry -142 Svein Gunnar Kjøde

Self-Scaling Open Innovation Pathways: Accelerating integration of augmented reality into the maritime sector -31 Espen Strange and Kjetil Nordby

Transforming Airport Hubs into Future-Proof Multimodal Transport Hubs -56 Aniek Toet, Jasper van Kuijk and Sicco Santema

SESSION 13 PAPERS

Practicing Systemic Design: The radical possibilities of difference -130 Ben Spong

Designing Infrastructures of Care: An exploration of listening and slowness for socio-ecological wellbeing -99 Rachel J Wilson

A Theory for Enquiry in Design PhD Research -160 Thomas Fischer

What to Make of the Appropriation of Autopoiesis in Architecture? -169 Guillermo Sánchez Sotés, Christiane M. Herr, and Thomas Fischer

Focus: Methods and the worlds they make

120 minutes

AIP: Absence, Ignorance, Presence (AIP): An Exformative Approach To Confronting Legacies of Oppression in Education

Concurrent online activities – 30 minutes

Making Systemic Design Increasingly Accessible: Building the bench

Bridging the empathy gap to create systemic value in products

Activities are 30-minute interactive sessions that provide a space for participants to engage and enact (not just listen to) new ideas and practices. Whereas conventional paper presentations usually begin with a talk and end with (often rushed) questions and comments, this format places interactions amongst participants as the main activities.

10 minutes – Opening, including introductions and scene setting
15 minutes – Activity, with participants getting the chance to interact
5 minutes – Conclusion

Six #NewMacy studios over two days – 5/6 Cultural Premises, Conscious Purposes, and Design: conversing with the legacies of Gregory Bateson and Vern Carroll

SESSION 14 PAPERS

Utilising Design Thinking to Reimagine Campus Culture: Learning, engagement, and persistence -8 Lynn Murray-Chandler, Danielle Lake and David Humphreys

GINGAmapping: Conversational strategies in technical advisory meta-learning for socio-spatial groups -155 Mateus van Stralen, Marcus Vinicius A. F. R. Bernardo, Isabel Amália Medero and Amélia Panet de Barros

At the Intersection of Cosmopolitan Elitism and Oppression: A postcolonial analysis of transnational education systems -7 Pushpi Bagchi

 Social Network Analysis for Cybernetic Interaction Design in Technology-Supported College Curricula -17 Shantanu Tilak, Marvin Evans, Ziye Wen and Michael Glassman

SESSION 15 PAPERS

POL– AI: Leveraging urban ecosystem -15 Marie Davidova, Leonie K Fischer and Martha Teye

Feral Systemic Design: (re)wilding methods and methodology for systemic architectural design -66 Eric Guibert and Eric Guibert

Exploring Synergies in Different Spatial Design Disciplines: A multi-scale approach to adaptive cycles in public-private interfaces -63 Elena Porqueddu

Micro-Architectures: A practical experiment on how to design with uncertainty -154 Erica Azevedo da Costa E Mattos and Diego Fagundes Da Silva

SESSION16 PAPERS

Design for a Time Between Worlds -158 Tara Campbell and Cheryl Hsu

Navigating Wicked Futures Through More-Than-Human Perspectives: Experiments in design education -58 Laura Dudek, Danielle Barrios-O’Neill, Nirit Binyamini Ben Meir, Elena Falomo, Charlotte Jarvis, and Carolina Ramirez-Figueroa

The Pattern Atlas of System Vulnerabilities -13 Peter Stoyko

Relics and Resources: Representing complexity in service and systemic design -172 Adeline Hvidsten and Anna Kirah

Focus description: Design over time

SESSION 17 PAPERS

Shifting Perceptions: Transforming anti-racism praxis into prototypes -190 Sameer Singh

Syntegrity for Designing Designing -152 Ana Paula Baltazar and Jose dos Santos Cabral Filho

Narrative Patterns and Exformative Design in Cooperative Learning -98 Francis Laleman

A Case Study of Theories of Systemic Change and Action: The Ecotrust Canada Home-Lands initiative -144 Lewis Muirhead, Anthony Persaud and Ryan Murphy

Focus description: Confronting legacies of oppression

Workshop – 120 minutes

Play Probes For Systemic Design Decisions

This session explores the research prompts initiated by promising post-graduate or early career research identified by RSD11 peer reviewers. Reviewers identified these doctoral projects as noteworthy and relevant to systemic design – and a way to extend the conversation on research directions in systemic design.

Abstracts: Research Fishbowl

Six #NewMacy studios over two days – 6/6 Prototyping Conversation

SESSION 18 PAPERS

Designing in the Context of Time: On Annetta Pedretti, practicing cybernetics and futuring -41 Dulmini Perera

Opening Possibility: Activating simultaneous multiple temporalities in the architecture drawing -27 Samantha Lynch

Design For/In/Of Time -37 Howard Silverman

Curating Spatio-Temporal Connection: Geological multi-proxies and becoming-with deep time -95 Connie Svabo and Line Nicolaisen

SESSION 19 PAPERS

Achieving Requisite Variety Through Intercultural Conversations -157 Estefania Ciliotta Chehade and Michael Arnold Mages

Participatory Sensemaking Through Visualising Conversations -181 Olaf Adan and Dan Lockton

Jumping Conversations -43 Andreas Wettre and Palak Dudani

How do we Deliberate about our Health? An investigation into the decision aid as a service system inflection point -64 Michael Arnold Mages and Joli Holmes

SESSION 20 PAPERS

Leaky Bodies and Environments: Infant feeding and design -28 Sally Sutherland

Systemic Design Principles Guiding Perinatal Mobile App for Ethnomedical Midwifery Unit in Bogota -45 Laura Nino, Daisy Yoo, Camila Nino Fernandez, and Caroline Hummels

Quilting Care Patterns: Remaking our social fabric -139 Josina Vink

The Ultimate Control: Using foresight and systems thinking to confront ‘The Pill’ as a system of liberation and oppression -218 Alexis Tennent and Angie Fleming

Focus description: Confronting legacies of oppression

SESSION 21 PAPERS

Breaking Boundaries in Resilience Planning -33 Evan Barba, Robin Dillon-Merrill, Uwe Brandes and Peter P.Marra

To Witness, To Practise, To Recognise: We see water system -72 Veneranda Carrino, Federica Spera and Giovanni Capoccia

Using Systemic Design to Drive the Transition of a Professional Kitchen towards the Circular Economy Scenario -133 Chiara Battistoni

Mapping Future-Making Practices -173 Irem Tekogul

SESSION 22 PRODUCTS

Breaking Fashion Systems: Slow, local and collective care as an intervention to fast style cycles expanding toward the long horizon -60 Donna Maione

Could Systemic Design Methods Support Sustainable Design of Interactive Systems? -79 Laetitia Bornes, Catherine Letondal and Rob Vingerhoeds

Objects in the Familiar: Systemic contexts of production -55 Kavitha Ravikumar

Crafting Systemic Design -164 Amishi Vadgama

Focus: Products are systemic objects

Workshop – 120 minutes

Prototyping Interdisciplinary Collaboration

There are over 30 maps and exhibits – contributing to a resource of systemic design artefacts that find the connections and relationships between things, span aspects of a system, and create immersive, rich design spaces. The exhibition includes a group displayed at Moulsecoomb Campus alongside the conference at the weekend at University of Brighton CCA, and the full digital collection.

Exhibits include a series of projects produced on the MA Sustainable Design programme, and work in progress of a systemic design challenge by the BSc Product Design students at the University of Brighton.

Presentations

14 years of experimenting with design systems and sustainability

Product longevity through emotional durability

Systems of Information Dissemination: How the control and manipulation of information helps to maintain control, influence and money

Others to be announced

#NewMacy ACT III – Reintroducing Stability – In Act III, we collectively build foundations for ongoing conversations and collaborations. We open with a multi-part conversation in which participants critique and develop ideas constructed during the Friday and Saturday Studios.

Note: those not able to attend the Studios are still most welcome to participate in Act III.

Cultural Environments with More-than-Human Perspectives The panel will discuss the transition towards post-Anthropocene, where humans and other beings live together in synergy. These other beings are other than the human species, non-living nature, or individuals such as Artificial Intelligence or robots. We will speculate on how we can transform our cities into synergy with the above-discussed beings.

Concurrent in-person activities – 30 minutes

Systemic Cycles – experiencing flows of systems thinking

Activities are 30-minute interactive sessions that provide a space for participants to engage and enact (not just listen to) new ideas and practices. Whereas conventional paper presentations usually begin with a talk and end with (often rushed) questions and comments, this format places interactions amongst participants as the main activities.

10 minutes – Opening, including introductions and scene setting
15 minutes – Activity, with participants getting the chance to interact
5 minutes – Conclusion

Concurrent in-person activities – 30 minutes

Systemic Design Contributions to Responsible Design Education

Activities are 30-minute interactive sessions that provide a space for participants to engage and enact (not just listen to) new ideas and practices. Whereas conventional paper presentations usually begin with a talk and end with (often rushed) questions and comments, this format places interactions amongst participants as the main activities.

10 minutes – Opening, including introductions and scene setting
15 minutes – Activity, with participants getting the chance to interact
5 minutes – Conclusion